Dr. Summer Bukeavich: Don't Get Anxious

00:00:00 Sumer Beatty: Welcome to Tomorrow Makers, where we explore how we learn, live, work, and play now and in the future. I am Sumer Beaty. 00:00:12 Carlos Ramos: And I'm Carlos Ramos. 00:00:13 Sumer Beatty: All right, so we're here today with Summer Bukiewicz, business professor at Penn College, and she is coming to us open and willing to discuss mental health through her personal journey. We do have fun with this one again. I said to her, don't know if there's been two Sumers on a podcast before, but we did it. And, I just think she is so candid and open and we hope that it impacts you like it did us. And, you know, even if you're not somebody who experiences anxiety, Believe it or not, you're probably, in contact with somebody and you might or might not know it. So... 00:00:49 Carlos Ramos: And you know, I, I felt so much calmer after this, this episode and there were just some clear ways that we could handle anxiety at any level, whether it's, you know, I, I, I'm usually pretty even keeled, but I can have my moments. I'm sure we all do. 00:01:06 Sumer Beatty: Sure. 00:01:07 Carlos Ramos: Yeah, so, so helpful. And I really appreciate her. Coming out and, doing this with us. 00:01:12 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, for sure. 00:01:14 Carlos Ramos: So here we go. 00:01:16 Sumer Beatty: Do it. Yeah. How are we going to do that? 00:01:25 Summer Bukeavich: I don't know. You tell me. 00:01:27 Sumer Beatty: Do what? We're just going to start. 00:01:28 Summer Bukeavich: Oh, okay. 00:01:29 Sumer Beatty: Do you think two Sumers have ever been in a podcast together before? 00:01:34 Carlos Ramos: I don't know. We need a researcher. 00:01:35 Sumer Beatty: In the history of podcasts, which is still pretty early. 00:01:40 Summer Bukeavich: It's kind of strange. 00:01:42 Sumer Beatty: It is. 00:01:43 Summer Bukeavich: Love it though. Sumer B's, no less. 00:01:45 Sumer Beatty: Oh, right. 00:01:46 Summer Bukeavich: Sumer bee. 00:01:46 Sumer Beatty: And marketing background, two Sumer bees. So here we are. 00:01:50 Summer Bukeavich: It's weird. 00:01:52 Sumer Beatty: All right. Are we ready? We're ready. Yeah, let's do this. Okay. So, I think it makes sense. We'll have you introduce yourself. 00:02:01 Summer Bukeavich: Okay. 00:02:01 Sumer Beatty: Let us, let us know who you are. 00:02:03 Summer Bukeavich: Who am I? 00:02:04 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. Your role at Penn College, and then we can just kind of go into mental health. 00:02:10 Summer Bukeavich: Okay. 00:02:10 Sumer Beatty: And why that topic is kind of near and dear to your heart. 00:02:13 Summer Bukeavich: Sounds good. So, my name is Sumer Bukeavich, and this, I'm actually going into my tenth year. Speaking of 10 years, my 10th year teaching full time, here at the college and I taught two years prior to that as an adjunct. I am in business administration. So I teach marketing and management courses, a whole variety of them, 100 level, up to 400 level. And, boy, what else do I do here? A lot. Academic advising on a couple committees. Advisor to the Penn College Business Club. So yeah, that is what I do here. 00:02:52 Sumer Beatty: Nice. Okay. So for some, it might be like, Oh, this is interesting. So there's this marketing background. What the heck does mental health have to do? 00:03:01 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. So it's funny. As I was, as I was sitting down this morning trying to think about, you know, Oh my gosh, you know, how am I going to respond to these questions? What am I going to say? I was thinking about a book that I had listened to on Audible earlier this summer called Range, by David Epstein. I don't know if either of you 00:03:21 Sumer Beatty: I have it. 00:03:22 Summer Bukeavich: Oh, okay. Fantastic. So then you will know that it is about, the importance of generalists in a specialized world. And so I don't know, I feel, I feel like I've always worn many hats. And I don't think it's a bad thing to wear many hats so long as you can balance all of those hats appropriately. Do you want to hear the origin story? Like how, how all of this came to be? Is that helpful? 00:03:52 Sumer Beatty: Sure. I think that would give some nice context for the conversation. 00:03:55 Summer Bukeavich: Okay. Gotcha. So, connection to mental health. So it's interesting, I guess I, I should preface this by saying, I never really thought I would be in higher ed. Growing up I wanted to be a teacher, but I was dissuaded, from doing so for a variety of reasons. Ended up majoring in communication in college, doing communication in grad school with a focus in PR. So very like marketing adjacent. But the mental health piece started, when I was in college and I've been very open about this and I'm willing to be very open about this now, especially so... When I was in college, you know, I was a first year college student. Nobody in my family had ever been to college before. My father, you know, single parent household, my father didn't even really understand the college landscape, so I was the one, you know, doing the FAFSA, you know, trying to navigate everything, myself. And it was my sophomore year where one night I laid down in my bed to go to sleep, and my heart started racing. I was like, oh, that's weird. Why is that happening? And then I started getting lightheaded and a little nauseous. So I got up and I was like, what's, wait, what's, what's wrong? Is something wrong with me? What's, what's going on? These are, these are uncomfortable sensations. and of course I didn't have the clarity of mind to, you know, say things like that to myself at that moment. So I ran into the bathroom and I splashed water on my face and I tried to calm myself down. And I started just, shaking. And I'm like, what in the world is, is going on? You know, what am I, the two thoughts that immediately popped up were, am I having like a heart attack? Am I having a stroke? Like am I having a medical emergency? I don't, I don't know. What do I do? Do I call 9 1 1? Is this nothing? I have no clue. So the solution at the time for my 19 year old self was to, go out into the hallway, in my dormitory. It was like two or three in the morning. And I just wandered the halls, drew on people's whiteboards to try and distract myself. And I eventually started feeling better. So I was like, okay, whatever it is is past, I'm sure I'm fine. Go to bed. I was so exhausted by that point that I was able to fall asleep pretty readily. But, the next day I was in my astronomy class. It was a course I didn't really want to take, but you know, it's one of those gen ed kind of things. Yeah. And I started feeling those feelings again, and I immediately became afraid of what that might mean. You know, I felt lightheaded. I felt kind of cold and clammy. And I had another panic attack. Of course, at that point, I didn't know it was. I 00:06:46 Sumer Beatty: was going to ask, yeah, did you have a name for it? 00:06:48 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah, no, I didn't have a name for it yet. I just knew that something weird was, was happening to me and it was really uncomfortable. And so to extend what could be a long story into a very short little capsule, they did end up being diagnosed as panic attacks, and they continued to bother me and completely alter the rest of my college career, my grad career, and the majority of my 20s. 00:07:16 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:07:16 Summer Bukeavich: So, yeah. 00:07:18 Sumer Beatty: So, back to the time when you started feeling this way, how did you go from what is this, am I having a heart attack, to putting a name on it? 00:07:27 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah, that's a good question. Well, it's an interesting, Interesting journey that it kind of took me into. I went to my primary care doctor. And of course I had to drive, you know, home from college to do that, which was challenging in and of itself because once you start getting panic attacks and you get behind the wheel of a car, it's not so easy, especially if you have to drive, you know, a considerable distance. So I went to my family doctor, and I told him my symptoms and he said, you know, that sounds like a textbook panic attack. Here's some meds. Go back to school. You're fine. I was like, oh, oh, okay. And it was comforting hearing from him that my symptoms were aligned with what panic attacks were. But I was not given coping strategies. I was not given a toolbox. I was given a bottle of pills. 00:08:25 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. 00:08:26 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. Which made things really, really difficult. I still kind of believed, you know, what he had told me, hey, you know, you're experiencing panic attacks, but every single time I would get them, you know, I would start to kind of question his diagnosis and rely a little bit too much, you know, on the medication that he gave me. So that was a, that was a huge challenge and it made the rest of my college career so much more difficult. You know, I did my best, but I wasn't able to, how do I word this? I don't know. I wasn't really able to, to thrive. 00:09:11 Sumer Beatty: Right. I was going to say, yeah. I mean, how can you experience everything to the fullest if you're. 00:09:15 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. 00:09:16 Sumer Beatty: Worried that's going to keep happening. 00:09:17 Summer Bukeavich: Exactly. 00:09:18 Sumer Beatty: And was there a trigger or? 00:09:20 Summer Bukeavich: So that's a great question. At that point in time, I don't necessarily think there was a defined trigger. I did develop triggers as time went on, mostly triggers that were related to the situations in which I had the panic attack. So first panic attack occurred while laying in my dorm room bed, right? So that became almost like a bad place. I had to switch my pillow to the other side of the twin bed to try and trick myself into thinking, hey, this is a different place, like, you're not going to panic here. But then once I had a panic attack in that other, you know, formulation, formulation? That other layout of the bed, like, I was like, I don't know what to do. I don't know where to sleep, because both, both setups feel scary and triggering. And then once I had a panic attack while driving, driving became a panic trigger. 00:10:07 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:10:08 Summer Bukeavich: Which is especially problematic. I did go to school here in Williamsport, and I'm originally from the Wilkes Barre area, Kingston specifically. So, if you're not familiar with Route 118, 118 kind of goes through the middle of nowhere, when you're trying to get from Williamsport to Kingston. 00:10:26 Carlos Ramos: I've been upside down on 118. 00:10:28 Summer Bukeavich: Have you? 00:10:29 Sumer Beatty: What? 00:10:29 Summer Bukeavich: That's horrifying. 00:10:31 Carlos Ramos: Yeah. 00:10:31 Summer Bukeavich: That is horrifying. 00:10:32 Carlos Ramos: It, it was bad. 00:10:33 Summer Bukeavich: You're okay though. 00:10:34 Carlos Ramos: But I'm okay. 00:10:35 Summer Bukeavich: You're okay. That's good. I too was in the back of an ambulance on 118 once because I had a panic attack so severe, that I just had to pull over and lay down in my car. There was no cell phone service. So I couldn't reach out to anybody. Thankfully, some volunteer firefighter pulled up to the car and was like, Hey, are you doing okay? And I was like, not really. 00:10:54 Sumer Beatty: Wow. 00:10:55 Summer Bukeavich: And so he was able to radio for an ambulance to come. Yeah. Yeah. 00:11:00 Carlos Ramos: And it is the middle of nowhere. 00:11:01 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah, it really is. Yeah. so yeah. 00:11:05 Sumer Beatty: Just side note, we'll circle back to why Carlos was upside down on the, what was it? 118. 00:11:11 Carlos Ramos: 118. 00:11:12 Sumer Beatty: I'm not going there. 00:11:13 Summer Bukeavich: Don't. No, don't. 00:11:14 Sumer Beatty: It doesn't sound like a place I want to go. There's no...no, just take 80 if you wanna spare. 00:11:18 Carlos Ramos: That's, that's where I'm going at three o'clock in the morning on, tomorrow. 00:11:20 Sumer Beatty: Oh no. Yeah. Three in the morning. 00:11:22 Carlos Ramos: Yeah. 00:11:22 Summer Bukeavich: Watch for deer. 00:11:23 Carlos Ramos: Yeah. . 00:11:24 Sumer Beatty: Oh, you can't control when the airplanes come and go though. So . 00:11:28 Summer Bukeavich: Oh, that's true. 00:11:29 Sumer Beatty: He's going to the airport. 00:11:30 Summer Bukeavich: Oh, okay. Fair. Yeah. 00:11:32 Sumer Beatty: Oh wow. So what a journey. 00:11:34 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. 00:11:34 Sumer Beatty: Oh my goodness. So, you had mentioned, which I think I know where you're going with this, hopefully, that you were given pills. Like, okay, here's the solution, but it sounds like now you're, this was a bit ago. You've come a ways since then. How did you, there's more to solution, a solution rather than, than pills. So what did you... 00:11:58 Summer Bukeavich: Well... 00:11:58 Sumer Beatty: ...figure out who were your resources? How... 00:12:01 Summer Bukeavich: That's a, this is, it's such a big question with a lot packed into it. And I'm trying to just kind of think now of how I want to organize it. 00:12:09 Sumer Beatty: Oh, definitely. And I'm, I'm not saying, Oh, okay. I mean, I'm guessing it's not, okay. I was not well then and I'm great now. Yeah. It's a process. It's always work. 00:12:20 Summer Bukeavich: It's fun to pretend like, Oh yeah, I just, I just, you know, I just flipped a switch and everything's fine. But no, there was a lot of hard work, between that and now. So after I first realized that, you know, the temporary short term meds weren't going to be effective in the long term, I did go to see a therapist before mental health parity was a thing, right? So, it was a short one off thing. a little session with a therapist in, in college, kind of ineffective. She told me, Hey, yeah, your symptoms are consistent with panic disorder. So, you know, that's, that's good. When you start feeling yourself feel those anxious feelings, feeling like you're woozy, feeling like your heart is racing, just stop and tell yourself, Stop. It's okay. You don't need to panic. And I was, I was like, yeah, that, that, that's cool. I'll try that next time. And I tried that next time and it didn't work of course, because why would it? so I ended college thinking that's what therapy is. Okay, clearly that's not going to be helpful for me. So maybe there's another kind of medication. So I ended up getting on another type of medication, an SSRI, which, oh boy, I have a lot to say about that, but I'll, I'll be kind of short and sweet about it. 00:13:45 Sumer Beatty: Do you want to give an example of like what that would be? So that serotonin reuptake inhibitors? 00:13:48 Summer Bukeavich: Yes, exactly. So specifically Paxil. I'll never forget my doctor. I went to him and I said, Hey, you know, doctor, these panic attacks are still really bothering me. You know this, this prescription for Xanax is, you know, it's useful sometimes, but I don't want to be on this all the time. And he said, okay, well, you know, we can put you on an SSRI. I pulled out his prescription pad and he actually said, hmm, Celexa or Paxil? Celexa or Paxil? And we'll go with the Paxil. I have some, I have some samples for you. Cause you know, we didn't have a whole lot of money, so I appreciated samples for sure. And so I ended up on the lowest dose of Paxil, in college, and it was great until I couldn't afford it anymore. And during my senior year of college, I couldn't afford it. So I said, you know, I'm just, I'm done. I'm going to, I have maybe 10 more pills. I'll take one every other day and then I'll just stop. And this is before they knew that, SSRI withdrawal symptom was a thing. but it is, so I ended my college career, this had to be the last two months of college, in withdrawal, from SSRIs with a symptom, a very disconcerting symptom called the brain zaps. I don't know if you're familiar with those or if you've ever heard of them, but every time you... 00:15:07 Carlos Ramos: Can you explain that? 00:15:08 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah, every time you turn your neck to the side, you get this, like, electrical sensation that kind of runs from your, your the top of your head down through your spine. 00:15:19 Sumer Beatty: Oh, great. That... 00:15:19 Summer Bukeavich: Oh yeah. It's a great way to finish out your college career. Oh, wow. You feel wonderful. And it just, yeah, it's, it's awful. 00:15:26 Sumer Beatty: Wow. 00:15:28 Summer Bukeavich: So, I somehow figured out a way, and I can't remember. the details of that. I think I convinced my dad to give me 40 so I can get another, another month's subscription for it or subscription, prescription so that I didn't have to deal with that because I knew I was going on to grad school, and I needed to be in good form for that because I knew I had a big challenge ahead. And then once grad school came, It was challenging for sure. Right. I did my master's program at the University of Delaware. And you know, like any grad program, holding up my hands about like a foot apart, there's like this much reading 00:16:12 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. 00:16:13 Summer Bukeavich: Every semester, you know... 00:16:14 Sumer Beatty: So much. 00:16:14 Summer Bukeavich: It's, it's insane. but the Paxil dulled my senses. It made a lot of things disinteresting disinteresting, uninteresting. One of those words. 00:16:22 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, we got you. 00:16:23 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So at that point I was like, you know, I'm doing well enough. And that was honestly the beginning of my mental health journey. I, I tell myself that that was the beginning because that's when I really began participating in mental health communities online. 00:16:47 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:16:47 Summer Bukeavich: And began publishing my book. work as or work writing basically on the patient experience. 00:16:55 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:16:56 Summer Bukeavich: So what had happened then is I started to slowly withdraw from Paxil because I didn't want those brain saps anymore. And it was a long process. Doctors were not convinced at that point in time, like I said, that withdrawal, was a thing. So, you know, I worked with an online community of people who were going through the same thing. I, on a whim one night, wrote a submission, the LA Times had some kind of article about SSRIs and I was like, I want to write like a letter to the editor style thing to the person who wrote that article because, you know, this is like the first person who's ever written about SSRI withdrawal or, you know, referred to it or something. so there I am at like one in the morning typing out this long missive about what my experience was like. And I sent it in. I'm like, I'll never hear back. The next day I heard back. They're like, we're going to publish your thing. And I was like, Oh my God, that's amazing. so that was really exciting. And so ever since then, I have had a series of fortunate kind of events that occur that have kind of given me a platform to speak out about mental health experiences. I was very hesitant when I was told that my, my work was going to be published because I realized, I'm like, I'm going to have to tell everybody now what's going on with me. But, I really didn't tell anybody in college except for a couple close friends. I most certainly didn't tell anybody in grad school because, you know, grad school is kind of cutthroat, you know, you really, you really don't want to show your, your weak side or at least back then, you know, in the, the late aughts, lest you be, boy, I don't want to say targeted. It's not like that, but you don't want to show where your weaknesses are because everyone else seems so strong and so intelligent, right? And imposter syndrome is a big thing. So I kind of like, I think the phrase I used was, You know, it came outta the medicine cabinet at that point, you know, hi, I have anxiety. My name is Sumer. I take medication. this is what's going on with me. 00:19:09 Sumer Beatty: How was that received at that time? 00:19:11 Summer Bukeavich: Surprisingly well. 00:19:12 Sumer Beatty: Oh, good. 00:19:13 Summer Bukeavich: Surprisingly well. I was very nervous, but as people began to see that article, both within my, my grad school circle and in the community in general. Like when I say community, I really mean like the nation because it was the LA Times, right? it was very well received. I got, boy, I don't know, probably a dozen, two dozen emails the first day. By the end of the first week, I probably had up to maybe about a hundred people email me saying, Oh my God, this is exactly what I'm going through. I have experienced that and I haven't heard anybody, anybody in public ever talk about these withdrawal side effects from these psychiatric meds. So thank you so much for, for putting that out there. 00:20:02 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. 00:20:03 Summer Bukeavich: And, something clicked in me when I began getting those messages again and again. I was like, okay, this is something that needs to be talked about. There is absolutely no reason to keep mental health struggles and, you know, their, their adjacent issues like medication therapy, etc. There is no reason to keep that stuff quiet. Let's talk about it. This is stuff that we all experience, maybe not all of us, but many of us, right? You said, you know, one in four U. S. adults are living with some type of a mental illness. So, heck, isn't it time we talk about it? 00:20:39 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, great point. Was there anyone close to you that was like, I had no idea. Why didn't you come say something? 00:20:45 Summer Bukeavich: Yes. 00:20:46 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:20:46 Summer Bukeavich: So it's really funny that you mentioned that in college in particular. I remember a friend of mine named Crystal. I was walking to class one day And, you know, it was fall, I had my warm, cozy sweater on, I had my little messenger bag, and I was just, you know, I was smiling on the way to class, and Crystal comes up to me, and she's like, Summer, oh my gosh, you look so relaxed. I wish I could be as calm as you are. I'm like. 00:21:11 Carlos Ramos: And inside, you're just this boiling pot of... 00:21:14 Summer Bukeavich: Exactly. I'm like, God, I guess I really do hide it well. But is that right? You know? 00:21:21 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. 00:21:22 Summer Bukeavich: Like, is that right? Do we need to be hiding these things? You know, I grew, I grew up with a, a boomer dad who, you know, kind of grew up during that time of, oh no, if you have a problem, you, you, you, you, 00:21:36 Sumer Beatty: Right. You suck it up. 00:21:37 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. You suck it up. You keep it inside your chest until you die, I guess. I don't know. I, that's not, but that's not my philosophy. You know, I, I feel good when I share my story and I share my experiences because I know that there are people out there listening. who also struggle with the same issues. And I mean, if I could have had, I don't want to say a mentor really. But if I had been in college and I could find, you know, somebody who is older, experienced, somebody who's already in the workforce, who would be willing to raise their hand and say, hey, I have a decent job. I've, I've had success in my life. and I struggle with anxiety severely, but you know. I'm I'm doing okay. 00:22:21 Sumer Beatty: I figured it out. 00:22:22 Summer Bukeavich: I would have, I would have had such a different experience. I really thought this was the end of the world for me. 00:22:28 Sumer Beatty: Right. 00:22:29 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. 00:22:29 Sumer Beatty: So here you are teaching at a college, you know, and if you think about your former self sitting in that classroom, so, have you had an opportunity to be that person? 00:22:38 Summer Bukeavich: Yes. 00:22:39 Sumer Beatty: Oh, nice. 00:22:40 Summer Bukeavich: I absolutely have. several students, you know, clearly won't name them, but one, one student that comes to mind in particular, she was a nontraditional student, I think in her later twenties, had a young child and just very clearly, I forget what, what really kind of tipped me off. I think it was absences. Absences, you know, without communicating with me and I reached out to her one day via email and I was like, Hey, you know, I just want to check in, you know, is everything okay? I noticed that you haven't been coming to class. I know you mentioned something about, you know, you have a two year old. You know, I have a kid. Things, things are challenging when you have a kid, just, you know, how are things? And, and she said that she was really struggling. And so she opened up to me a little bit, via email. So I actually referred her, to counseling. I don't, if I remember correctly, she wasn't aware that counseling was available for free, on campus, you know, with her, you know, her being a student. And she wrote back to me a couple days later, and she said, yeah, you know, counseling reached out to me, and I struggled with it for a few days. I felt a little uncomfortable at first, but then I realized that I'm really grateful that that's a thing that you did. And so she, she did pursue counseling. I came back to class, did fine in class, and I actually keep in touch with this student on Facebook. And, she is thriving with her now older kiddo. So that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And it just, it just makes my heart so happy, you know, because I, I feel like I'm uniquely positioned, you know, to, to talk with students and to help them and to at least give them resources. 00:24:28 Sumer Beatty: Right. 00:24:28 Summer Bukeavich: You know, cause when you're, when you're a college student and you're, you know, feeling extremely stressed, having problems with anxiety, you don't necessarily know what to do or where to turn. 00:24:39 Sumer Beatty: Right. And it's a process. It's a journey too. 00:24:42 Summer Bukeavich: It really is. Yeah. Yeah. 00:24:43 Carlos Ramos: I mean it's it's such a time of life that's just fraught with change as well. I'm sure that doesn't do anything to amplify. 00:24:52 Summer Bukeavich: Oh, yeah, nothing nothing at all. No, you know It's funny. I'll be, well, I won't say exactly. I'm in my late thirties. I'll say that. and as a lot of my friends are, you know, approaching 40, they're like, god, you know, I wish I can go back to my twenties again. I'm like, I don't wish that because my twenties were full of confusion and difficulty. And, I just didn't know how to handle what life had thrown at me yet. But that's, that's something that developed over time. 00:25:27 Sumer Beatty: Right. So if we do think about that process, I know you can't say, oh, just do this and it'll fix it. 00:25:33 Summer Bukeavich: Uh huh. 00:25:34 Sumer Beatty: But what are some of those really important steps that you have taken to get from where you were to where you are? 00:25:41 Summer Bukeavich: Okay, well, I will definitely say therapy is one of them, one of those things. And I encourage that of all students who come to me saying like, hey, I'm having trouble, you know, struggling with balancing work and school, or school and life, or what have you. Incredibly helpful. A lot of students, and I think this is changing, right? But therapy used to be seen, at least in my circles, as something you do if you don't know how to solve a problem yourself. And my perspective on therapy is, is much different than that now. I really think, and I tell students this verbatim, going to counseling, engaging in therapy is like taking a college level course on you, on yourself, right? it's like walking into a room with a big mirror and that mirror actually shows you what's going on in you, right? So that you can understand yourself in a new way. And I think that's something that we can all really benefit from more? Because how can we be, you know, we talk about tomorrow makers, right? I teach management. How can we be good decision makers? How can we be good leaders in organizations? How can we manage others if we can't understand ourselves, right? You know, that all, all of that has to come first. So I encourage therapy to a lot of students. Now I've done a lot of other things in my time, different types of therapy. So I guess it's important to mention as well, excuse me, that once I went into my first job after grad school, well, first of all, I finished my graduate degree right at the beginning of the recession. So that, that was, that was nice. So I was underemployed for a while, working in a call center. Call centers are, boy, I don't know, I, I've never read Dante's Inferno, but it, it, some level of hell, some very, very deep level of hell. 00:27:38 Sumer Beatty: I'm imagining that episode of The Office where Michael was in the call center. I don't know if anyone's seen that at all. 00:27:44 Summer Bukeavich: I probably have. I don't remember it though, but yeah. 00:27:46 Sumer Beatty: It paints the picture for me, but yeah, sorry to interrupt. 00:27:49 Summer Bukeavich: No, no, that's okay. it's just very difficult for somebody in particular who has anxiety, right? Because what do you do? They sit you down at a desk, you put a set of headphones on, and they say, okay, stay there. You're only allowed a six minute break to go to the bathroom. Your breaks are very rigidly structured. You know, and all of that feeling like I'm out of control, that helped to amp up my anxiety even more. Funny story about the call center that I think is worth mentioning. and I, I share this story in my organizational behavior courses because I think it's just such a good example of not like what you should not do if you want to put people first in an organization and care for their mental health and well being. We hit some sort of like metric goal, right? And as a result, they said, hey, you guys get a pizza party. And we were like, yeah, pizza party. Cool. You know, it's not like 20 of us. But for business needs, in order to keep the phones adequately staffed, we all had to go into this conference room and eat pizza by ourselves. We all had a 10 minute time slot and then we had to return to our desk and then the next person can go to the pizza party... 00:29:08 Sumer Beatty: By themself. 00:29:09 Summer Bukeavich: By themselves. Yeah. 00:29:10 Sumer Beatty: Single person. 00:29:10 Summer Bukeavich: Single person. Yeah. 00:29:11 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:29:12 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. So, just to kind of add context to what this place was like, so while I was there, of course, you know, I wasn't using my skills. I wasn't using what I had learned in grad school. So the anxiety started to really come back with a vengeance and I started getting panic attacks again to the point where I ultimately had to leave because I, I just simply couldn't handle it anymore. And I was going somewhere with, with this, but I can't remember where I was going. Oh, actually I do because I looked at my notes here and I just realized, that's kind of what started. the transition from me being, what's the word I'm looking for here, from anxiety having a hold on me to me beginning to have a hold on anxiety. So I took some time off of work. That's when we actually moved up here to the Williamsport area. And I ended up, as a result of my LA Times article, I ended up being invited, to write for a, a website called Psych Central. 00:30:30 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:30:31 Summer Bukeavich: So I began writing for their World of Psychology blog, and then eventually they gave me my own blog called Panic About Anxiety. And that is where, I kind of hit my, hit my stride, I guess. I started writing articles about, you know, my personal experiences, you know, offering up tips, you know, not from the standpoint of a therapist, but just from the standpoint of like, oh, hi, you know, I'm an everyday human being who has experienced this. So let me just kind of share, you know, what it's like for somebody with an anxiety disorder at the dentist. Here's a couple tips to make things easier, etc. And that made me feel super impactful. you know, got a lot of comments, got a lot of emails from people saying, hey, oh my god, thank you. 00:31:20 Sumer Beatty: I relate. 00:31:21 Summer Bukeavich: Thank you writing about that. Yeah, and you know, the article, maybe this is a tangent, but I'll share it anyway. The article that I got the most feedback on, I wrote a piece about exercise induced anxiety, because that's one of the things, and students are told this all the time, too, right? Oh, if you're anxious, go for, go for a run. You know, get some exercise. You know, that'll help you feel better. Well, when you get panic attacks... 00:31:43 Sumer Beatty: How well do you run while your heart is racing? 00:31:45 Summer Bukeavich: Well, and it's not quite that, it's that, like once your heart starts racing, when you're running, it reminds you, of having a panic attack. And so it's like a triggering kind of event. So, you know, I got all this poor advice, say, oh, start running. You'll feel better. No, no, I didn't feel better. I just kind of felt like I was self inducing, a panic attack, which is not a very good thing. And so that set me back a little bit. But once I got to Williamsport here, and I was writing for Psych Central for a period of time, managing my own blog, Producing content, producing videos, I ended up applying for and being accepted to, I think it was the first iteration of TEDxWilliamsport. And I did a talk there about how I managed my anxiety at the call center and how I kind of climbed out of that hell hole that I had been in. The general theme of that was, let me see if I remember the words here. Migrate, Hibernate, Adapt. I was watching a documentary, like a nature documentary show, because, you know, that's kind of nerdy. I don't watch popular TV. You watch documentaries. What are you going to do? 00:32:59 Sumer Beatty: Oh, nothing wrong with that. 00:33:00 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah, right? 00:33:01 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. 00:33:01 Summer Bukeavich: And, you know, so it was about animals and it just kind of randomly mentioned that, yeah, you know, when they're in an environment that doesn't serve them, animals really only have three options. They can hibernate, they can adapt, or they can migrate. And something about that stuck with me. I was like, Oh my god. Do I have all this anxiety because I am trying to function within the parameters of an environment that just doesn't work for me? And that was a big turning point. I think that was actually the theme of the TEDx event, like transitions or turning points or something like that. Breakthroughs. That's what it was, breakthroughs. So, so after I did that talk, I got a lot of feedback, positive feedback about that. People from call centers, all over the world, United States, India, Philippines commenting, saying, oh my god, I have panic attacks at work too. I hate my call center. It's soul sucking. I can't handle it. Right? And so that kind of thing really got me thinking and I got into this idea of, you know, what, what does it take to create a workplace that is healthy for people? 00:34:12 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. 00:34:13 Summer Bukeavich: Right. That is an environment that does. support the employees. That does support others. And, I would call that the beginning of my slow transition to Penn College. 00:34:26 Sumer Beatty: Okay. Wow. 00:34:28 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah, I know. It's a weird road. It's a weird road. 00:34:30 Sumer Beatty: No, it's, it's the real road. 00:34:32 Summer Bukeavich: It's the real road. 00:34:33 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. 00:34:34 Summer Bukeavich: It's true. 00:34:34 Sumer Beatty: Right. So it sounds like community is, was huge for you. You started, you know, researching topics online and then being part of an online community. 00:34:44 Summer Bukeavich: Yes. 00:34:44 Sumer Beatty: And then also almost forming a community by way of this outreach, be it through articles or through the TED talk, whatever it is. So how has that transformed into your today? Like how, are there any communities that you're part of now, or anything that, I'm just thinking for listeners that are thinking, wow, this resonates with me. Is there something I should be a part of? Is there something I should be a blog or a podcast or how do they? You know where I'm going with this? Like, I don't know if there's anything. 00:35:19 Summer Bukeavich: You know, there's a podcast I like listening to called The Anxious Overachiever. I swear it's not my own podcast. You, you would think it were though. Where they basically interview, anxious overachievers, which I think I qualify as. So, that's one recommendation. But, you know, my other recommendations are a little bit more nebulous, right. I, there's no one particular community that I've found solace in. 00:35:50 Sumer Beatty: Mm-hmm 00:35:50 Summer Bukeavich: But my recommendation would be just try to find a community. It used to be a lot more difficult than it is now. 00:35:57 Sumer Beatty: I would think so. 00:35:58 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. 00:35:58 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. It seems so much more, everyone seems open now and it's just more, I don't want to say mainstream, but you know, it's, it's more talked about. 00:36:06 Summer Bukeavich: It is. And I, you know, I know that I know that social media gets, we'll say crapped on a lot for a lot of reasons. And some of those reasons are very justifiable. But I mean, one of the things I wrote about for Psych Central was like the, the intersection of technology, and mental health. And so that's something that I've been continually interested in even throughout my journey, you know, professionally, I haven't done any work with it professionally, but you know, it's definitely something that just, I'm always kind of noticing and focusing on. And, TikTok of all places, right? TikTok seems to have, and I say this cautiously, right? Because if you're on the wrong side of TikTok, you know, you're not going to see this kind of content. But once you start liking positive content that is related to a mental health issue with which you identify, you start seeing more and more of that content. And TikTok is a place where I have found a pretty decent community of folks. Now, I'm not really a creator on there. I've kind of put content creation on the back seat ever since, you know, beginning to teach, because what I mean, let's face it, teaching takes a lot of time and work and energy, right? And I'm all about protecting my energy now to make sure that my anxiety stays below the threshold over which it would cause problems. But there really is. I think there's really a community to be found out there, on TikTok and on Instagram as well. When I was going through my doctoral dissertation process, a couple of years ago in 2020, during a global pandemic, 00:37:50 Sumer Beatty: You have great timing. 00:37:52 Summer Bukeavich: I do. I do. Honestly. 00:37:54 Sumer Beatty: Achievements. 00:37:56 Summer Bukeavich: Gosh, it's ridiculous. Yeah. But I found a community on there of other people who were working on their Ed. D. s and Ph. D. s at the same time. And honestly, even if it's just one or two people who you can empathize with, who can empathize with you, who can understand what you're going through in some of your struggles, it can honestly make a world of difference. 00:38:17 Sumer Beatty: Right. So even if you're not the one struggling and you, it's important to be aware of what's happening, you know, with those around you, the people you're working with, the people you, you know, within your family, your friend group. 00:38:29 Summer Bukeavich: Oh, yeah. 00:38:29 Sumer Beatty: Just everyone. Yeah. 00:38:30 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I do think that people talk more about mental health now. And I've often chewed on that question, like, you know, why? What, what, what exactly changed? Is it just the fact that social media exists? Or are we seeing a greater cultural shift? Does it have something to do with, you know, Gen Z, being primarily raised by Gen X. You know, boomers are kind of, you know, aging upward. You know, it's many of us millennials are like, you know, still kind of struggling with it. But I, a lot of my students are Gen Z and they're just so willing to come to me and be like, oh yeah, hey, so I have, I have bipolar disorder or hey, I have ADHD. You know, can we talk about this or that? And I'm like, wow, you guys are just coming and throwing it out there. And that's amazing. Like I, I absolutely love that. And I, I really think that the world is changing for the better in that regard. Yeah. 00:39:31 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. So back to, you had mentioned that they were just very forthcoming with that information. Did you feel a sense of relief when you, you know, put those articles out there and came out and finally was just like, you know what? 00:39:44 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. 00:39:45 Sumer Beatty: I got this going on and it is what it is. And yeah. 00:39:48 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. So I, I think authenticity is very important for wellness, right? If you are trying to present a version of yourself to the world that doesn't fully represent who you are, I think in the end, you kind of end up burnt out, right? Because maintaining that mask, maintaining that facade, maintaining that, oh, yes, I'm a great professional who can do anything and I can, you know, what do job, job descriptions read like? Like, oh, we're looking for somebody who, is a self starter, who's task oriented or detail oriented and can handle simultaneous. It's like, no, that's, that's not me. Like, that's, that's not me at all. Right. And I, for the period of my life, when I was working in industry, when I was trying to be exactly that, I think that's one of the things that really ramped up my anxiety. And so over the years, I've learned, honestly, that authenticity is so important. is what is going to result in, I mean, so many better outcomes. But professionally when you are authentic, you're going to find a better person organization fit to use a term that we use in organizational behavior. And I think that's to everybody's benefit, not only organization or not only people, but organizations as well. Yeah. 00:41:20 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, definitely. So, how does mindset factor into all of this. I mean, that's huge, right? That's something that's being talked about a lot. Is that part of your, we'll say, practice? 00:41:32 Summer Bukeavich: So I have a couple things to say about mindset. So when I think about mindset, I really think about self talk, right? And the things that we say to ourselves really do matter. And I know it sounds kind of like woo woo to say that, right? You know, I'm not standing in front of the mirror every morning saying like, You are intelligent. You are capable, right? even though I'm asking my, my seven year old to do that sometimes, because... 00:42:02 Sumer Beatty: I feel like that's a whole nother line of questioning because being a parent, right? I'm like, okay, so there's all this, everything you've learned and then you're wanting to make sure this little person does the right things. 00:42:13 Summer Bukeavich: Exactly. Exactly. So I don't do that, but the stories that we tell ourselves about the experiences that we undergo, I think are really valuable. So, I had a professor in college who had us do this little activity with language. And I honestly cannot remember what her rationale for this activity was, but I've kind of, you know, changed it up a little bit. And I do this with my students, right? To give them a sense of understanding of the way language can impact the way we think. So if I were to do this with you right now, I would say, Hey, Carlos, Hey, Sumer. I am going to give you two pairs of opposites. Or, I'm sorry, a pair of opposites. Like, hot and cold. 00:42:58 Sumer Beatty: Mm hmm. 00:42:58 Summer Bukeavich: What word describes the middle of that. Like what, what's directly in the middle of hot and cold? 00:43:05 Carlos Ramos: Go right to warm. 00:43:07 Summer Bukeavich: Warm? 00:43:07 Carlos Ramos: Yeah. 00:43:08 Summer Bukeavich: Warm. Okay. How about top and bottom? 00:43:10 Sumer Beatty: This is fascinating because I was thinking of food. I was thinking ice cream and then coffee, and then I'm like, what's in the middle? 00:43:20 Carlos Ramos: Oh, mocha. 00:43:21 Sumer Beatty: I don't know. Yeah. So that's so funny how the brain works though, right? We're all so different. 00:43:29 Summer Bukeavich: Yep. This is true. 00:43:29 Sumer Beatty: Okay. What's the lesson? 00:43:31 Summer Bukeavich: Well... 00:43:32 Sumer Beatty: I'm excited to hear. 00:43:33 Carlos Ramos: I was going to say there's more questions. I'm like ready for the quiz. 00:43:36 Sumer Beatty: Top and bottom. 00:43:37 Summer Bukeavich: What's the, what's the term that would fall in the, and I don't want to say the middle. 00:43:42 Sumer Beatty: Middle. 00:43:42 Summer Bukeavich: Okay. Left and right. 00:43:44 Carlos Ramos: Center. 00:43:45 Sumer Beatty: Center.. 00:43:45 Summer Bukeavich: Okay. 00:43:46 Sumer Beatty: Now I'm falling in line here. 00:43:47 Carlos Ramos: This could be a trick question here and it's going to be like, what do you put in a toaster? 00:43:50 Summer Bukeavich: How about happy and sad? 00:43:55 Sumer Beatty: Content. 00:43:56 Summer Bukeavich: Content. Okay. Okay, I think we've done enough. So think about those words. Middle, medium, lukewarm, whatever we said before. 00:44:06 Sumer Beatty: Mocha. 00:44:07 Summer Bukeavich: Mocha. Other than mocha. 00:44:09 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:44:10 Summer Bukeavich: All of those words are fairly bland, right? They're, they're not super sexy. They're not super exciting. So when we tell stories to ourselves, at least this is what I've seen in my own brain, we tend to exaggerate to make those stories exciting and interesting. So there's many times where I've walked into work, you know, back when I was working in industry saying things like, oh my god, I'm exhausted. And then I've checked myself. I'm like, am I really exhausted? Or am I just mildly tired? Mildly tired doesn't have the same kick to it as exhausted does. Right? 00:44:45 Sumer Beatty: Right. 00:44:46 Summer Bukeavich: So I'm being bold in my language to be interesting, but I'm also telling myself a story that is a little bit exaggerated. And then I'm internalizing that story. Do we really want to be doing that? Right? There's, our language has no very, you know, descriptive, beautiful, sexy words for those middle ground, you know, kind of, concepts, right? And so I think that's an important lesson to learn because our language in and of itself can kind of help us to exaggerate. And so I try, you know, when you talk about mindset, like I said, I think of self talk, I try to catch myself when I am telling myself a story about the kind of day I had or, you know, the kind of stressor that I know I'm about to experience, right? Like, so we're coming up on the Fall 23 semester. I have a lot to prep. Now I said the word a lot. I kind of wanted to say I have a million things to prep. I don't have a million things to prep. So I think just checking yourself for exaggeration and correcting yourself, getting yourself back to reality can be really helpful in reducing anxiety. So that's where I think mindset comes in.. 00:46:07 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. I love it. Yeah. I think that's great. 00:46:10 Summer Bukeavich: Can I say a word on mindfulness while we're talking about words that start with mind? Okay. So I did my dissertation on mindfulness. So, many people might look at me and think, oh my gosh, you must be a huge advocate of mindfulness. And to a degree I am. But I will say, when I was at the University of Delaware in what I call grad, grad school, round one. So my master's. I took a, like a group therapy class, basically for people who were dealing with anxiety. And that's where I was first introduced to mindfulness. And I had a hell of a time with it. It was so incredibly hard because, you know, what is mindfulness, right? It's the, It's paying attention to the present moment intentionally without judgment. Okay. What distresses somebody with panic disorder the most? Often, the present moment, those uncomfortable sensations, right? The feeling of your heart beating, the feeling of, you know, I, you know, feeling a little sweaty, clammy, et cetera. So mindfulness, over the years, has kind of become, I've become more friendly with it, right? But for beginners, it's, it's not a be all end all solution. And if I could also say my piece about mindfulness, kind of on the societal level, I mean, mental health is a, it's a huge issue now, especially post COVID, right? We have more people who need therapy, who are seeking therapy than we have mental health therapists out there. So a lot of organizations are saying, hey, here's some mindfulness activities. And for those who obviously can't see, which is anybody I'm, I'm like, I'm like pretending to throw something in the air here, right? T shirts. Here's mindfulness for you, for you, for you. Does that work? I don't know. Maybe it works for a couple of people. But when organizations tell their employees like, Hey, you should try to be mindful, that puts the impetus on the individual to deal with anxiety that might stem not from themselves and the way that they're handling the world, but, you know, from the organization at large, you know, placing unreasonable requests on the employee. That might come from, you know, stresses from society that, you know, cannot really be responded to with mindfulness, right? So, to me now, I see mindfulness kind of as a, it has the potential to just be a band aid fix if it's not implemented the right way. If somebody seeks out mindfulness and uses it for their own benefit to help them with anxiety or depression or any other, you know, mental health issue, fantastic. But if it is given to somebody from an authority, from an organization, I really think it's just a quick fix that's hiding potentially a larger problem. I think it's important to mention, excuse me, that mental health, you know, we, we often look at individuals and say, oh, if that person's having a mental health problem, you know, it's probably something in their brain, brain chemical related. Maybe it has to do with trauma they experienced and maybe all of that's true, but we also have to look at the environment in which an individual works, lives, plays, and ask ourselves, does the environment serve and support that person? So that's my, my piece on that. 00:49:50 Sumer Beatty: Well, that's interesting. But you, you got your master's in mindfulness? 00:49:56 Summer Bukeavich: No. So my master's was in communication and public relations. Yeah. So my doctoral dissertation. 00:50:01 Sumer Beatty: Oh, okay. So you're... 00:50:02 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. 00:50:03 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:50:03 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. No, that's okay. 00:50:05 Sumer Beatty: And I'm like, wait a minute. Does she like, I can't tell if you're like for it or not, but it's obviously something you were like, I want to dig into this a little bit more. 00:50:11 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah, exactly. Well, and, and my research was primarily on what students here at Penn College perceive mindfulness to be. 00:50:19 Sumer Beatty: Right. 00:50:19 Summer Bukeavich: And how they envision it potentially being a part of their management career. So, you know, I interviewed current management students, you know, asked about their perceptions of mindfulness, how they engage in mindful activity, and where they see that kind of intersecting with their careers, if at all. 00:50:38 Sumer Beatty: I understand. Yeah, gotcha. Nice. No, should we have, I feel like I went totally off the, the book here. I'm so sorry. No, don't apologize. I gave you questions and didn't really ask them in any particular order. 00:50:56 Summer Bukeavich: I tend to do that. I mean, life is all about tangents, right? I feel like that's how we find, that's how we find the good stuff. You know, when we stick to a script, we, we don't often, I don't know, we don't often find the fun, the fun stuff. I mean, there's more, if there's anything else you want to do, I mean, we can talk about some of the questions. I'm not in a huge hurry. It's up to you. 00:51:18 Carlos Ramos: Well, what, what would you, what tools would you suggest to someone who they've been listening to this and they're still like, I'm just still not comfortable. Like I, I'm, I am so. I have so much anxiety about my anxiety and the idea of expressing this to someone. 00:51:36 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. 00:51:37 Carlos Ramos: What are some tools they could turn to? 00:51:41 Summer Bukeavich: It's a great question. It's funny that you said anxiety about anxiety. My blog was called Panic About Anxiety. So, you know, very, very meta, right? There's so many wonderful resources on the internet. I can't name any of them because it's been a while since I personally needed them, you know. But I think where a lot of us struggle, and this is, you know, this is obviously coming from my own experience and not everybody else's but you know, the folks I've talked to, the people who've emailed me, we have expectations for ourselves, right? And, and when we struggle to meet those expectations. I think that's something that can really feed into anxiety. And I think if we begin to learn how to talk to ourselves, as if we're talking to a friend, I think that can help kind of soften our anxiety. some of those hard feelings, if that makes sense, right? For example, you know, every time I, I don't say every time, but you know, just thinking back to some situations in my past where I, I have a perfectionistic streak. It's true. I do. Where I have wanted to do really well at something and I've kind of, kind of only hit like 80, 85%, you know, I can, I occasionally will get really hard on myself. And the self talk that we engage in there, I think, is really important, right? And so what I've started doing, and I think it was either a therapist or honestly a friend from the internet who told me about this. I can't remember which, but ask yourself, you know, the things that you're telling yourself, would you tell that to a friend? You know, would you? 00:53:40 Sumer Beatty: Oh, sure. And I bet most people would say, No way. I would never say that. 00:53:43 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Right? So if you're caught in that spiral of like, oh my god, I'm never gonna get out of this panic spiral. This is, you know, I'm doomed. There's no way I can ever get better. Would you say that to your best friend? Like, hey, Jennifer, you're doomed. You're never going to get out of this. Like, no, no, you would not. Who in their right mind would do that? So why in the world do we do that to ourselves? Right? 00:54:10 Sumer Beatty: Right. 00:54:11 Summer Bukeavich: Catching ourselves saying those things though, that's the big challenge, right? And it took a long time for me to get to that point where I could kind of actively monitor my stream of consciousness as I'm talking. 00:54:24 Sumer Beatty: Right. 00:54:24 Summer Bukeavich: And I think that's an important skill set for people to eventually develop. But when you're in the throes of panic, or anxiety, or depression, or anything like that, you gotta reach out to somebody. Somebody that you trust. I mean, it doesn't always have to immediately be a therapist. It could be a trusted friend. It could be a professor, you know. it could even be, now it could even be Siri. Can I tell a fun story? 00:54:50 Sumer Beatty: Oh, a Siri offering. 00:54:52 Summer Bukeavich: Oh. Do you want a good story? 00:54:54 Sumer Beatty: Sure. 00:54:55 Carlos Ramos: Yeah. 00:54:55 Sumer Beatty: That's why we're here. 00:54:57 Carlos Ramos: I think I read about this. 00:54:58 Summer Bukeavich: Did you? 00:54:58 Carlos Ramos: I think so. 00:54:59 Summer Bukeavich: My thing? 00:55:00 Carlos Ramos: From your blog. 00:55:00 Summer Bukeavich: So you Googled me. As I would expect somebody in PR to do. So, 11 or 12 years ago, should I print out some notes on this just in case I was going to bring it up. So 11 or 12 years ago, when my husband got his first iPhone and I got my first iPad. Siri came on the scene, she was new, she still had that old weird robotic voice. And, I was on Twitter, too much, but I was on Twitter and I saw somebody make a post that said, I asked Siri, or I said to Siri, Hey Siri, I want to jump off of a bridge. And Siri responded back with something like, oh, here's the closest bridge. Here's the directions to get to the closest bridge. And I saw that Tweet and I was like, you're kidding me. That is not, that's not good. Right. So ever curious, I went to my iPad or my husband's iPhone, iPhone, I can't remember. And I started playing with Siri and, actually made a video. And it's still on YouTube. and it's called Talking to Siri About Suicide. So I started with some innocuous things, well, not really innocuous, somewhat innocuous things. Like Siri, I'm depressed. Just to see how she would respond. Siri, I don't want to live anymore. And I escalated, and Siri just, she was good for nothing. She was good for nothing. I said, Siri, I want to kill myself tomorrow. And so she like made an appointment for me for the next day. Yeah. Yeah. Siri, I want to sleep forever. She gave me a list of hotels. So, so I made a video about that cause I'm like, all right, this has to, this kind of has to be exposed, right? I know she's just this little AI digital assistant, but in my mind, thinking about the future. I was like, AI's gonna, you know, this is gonna grow. Like, eventually Siri's gonna do more and be more. 00:57:01 Sumer Beatty: Right. 00:57:01 Summer Bukeavich: So I posted that video to YouTube, and I got a lot of flack about it. A lot of people, if you scroll through the comments, a lot of people were like, well, of course she wouldn't, like, give you any real help. I mean, she's just like a robot that lives in your phone. And now, look at the way we use digital assistants. They're, they're much more integrated into our lives. You know, between Siri and Alexa and it just, you know, things have really changed. So, after I posted that video, there was a comment that I got on that video that I will never forget. And it said, Summer, a colleague sent this video to me and I contacted Apple and sent the video. With the guidance of a group of national advisors, we worked with Apple so Siri would refer persons wanting help for suicide to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. This change is in effect. Many news articles on this change are now posted on the web. Thanks again, Summer. You really made a difference, from John Draper, Ph. D., the Director of the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. 00:58:03 Sumer Beatty: Wow. 00:58:04 Summer Bukeavich: So that was kind of my peak in mental health advocacy. I was absolutely floored. And it's true. If you ask Siri now for some type of mental health help, whether it's, you know, fairly benign or fairly serious, she will not only refer you to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, she will offer to call, for you and connect you. 00:58:31 Sumer Beatty: That's amazing. 00:58:32 Summer Bukeavich: Which I think is, yeah, I think it's really amazing. I mean, we, especially students now, right, early 20s, everyone is just so tech dependent. And there might be that instance where this thing, this phone that I'm holding up and shaking is maybe your only support. So to go back to your question, even if you can't reach out to a person, a human being, which is still preferable, it's amazing to me that there are digital tools now that can provide you with at least some degree of crisis level support. Maybe not support in and of itself, but connection to supports, that can help you. 00:59:15 Sumer Beatty: That's awesome. 00:59:16 Summer Bukeavich: So have you, 00:59:16 Carlos Ramos: We'll post a link to that article and to the, the video, so people can.... 00:59:19 Summer Bukeavich: Oh, cool. 00:59:20 Carlos Ramos: ...see that, because I, I think there's, there's, you know, there's some keys in how you communicate as well, when, when you're putting yourself out there, when you're putting it out on the line, that resonate with those that aren't in a position to take that change that you're calling for and put it into effect. 00:59:40 Summer Bukeavich: You never know who's going to see what you post. And I tell my students that in a completely different context. Like, don't post stupid, stupid stuff that you're going to regret later on. And I have those feelings initially. Posting about, you know, mental health related content. But in this instance, I think it's, I think it's really beneficial and it's made some positive changes in the world. So... 01:00:07 Sumer Beatty: Good job. 01:00:08 Summer Bukeavich: Thank you. Thank you. 01:00:11 Sumer Beatty: I didn't know that. I guess... 01:00:13 Summer Bukeavich: It's, it's a fun story. I haven't really publicized it before, but I figured now would be a, you know, a nice time to, given the conversation that we're having. So... 01:00:23 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, perfect. Thanks for sharing that. 01:00:25 Summer Bukeavich: Sure. 01:00:26 Sumer Beatty: So, I guess, like, is there anything we're missing? 01:00:32 Carlos Ramos: Yeah, I think there is one. There's one angle here. So, you know, we've talked about the individual that's dealing with anxiety. How about those that are, maybe you don't, maybe there's somebody who's in your life, in your circle. who's dealing with anxiety, and sometimes we can see it, but I think a lot of times, as we've acknowledged here earlier, it's hidden. 01:00:56 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. 01:00:56 Carlos Ramos: How do we learn to better recognize that from people that are in our lives that might be dealing with that level of anxiety that is crippling, but they're hiding it so well? 01:01:13 Summer Bukeavich: Hmm. That's a great question. That's a great question. I think people who've experienced it before are more likely to be able to recognize that, but it's, it's still challenging. I am, one of the things that I've done is I like to give people space to ask or to answer questions, right? So sometimes I'll be sitting down with a student and I'll say, you know, Hey, you, you know, you haven't been turning in your assignments, right? How are you? And I'll just, I'll pause almost to the point of awkwardness, right? And I, I feel like that pause extends an invitation. Right? And some of the things that, that students respond with after I give them that pause, which I think communicates to them that like, hey, I'm really allowing you to speak here. Some of the things that they come back with are really deep and, and really heavy. So I think if anybody, those of us, whether we, you know, have experience with a mental health issue or not, asking questions of others, really genuinely wanting to know how people are doing, not just the, oh, hey, how are you doing? Oh, I'm doing great. Like, no, let's, let's go beyond that. 01:02:47 Sumer Beatty: That pause is huge. 01:02:48 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. Let's be a little bit more authentic and, you know, unafraid of receiving an answer, that might not be the most positive. 01:03:01 Sumer Beatty: That's true. You ask and you might receive, so be ready. 01:03:04 Summer Bukeavich: Right, right. Exactly. And, you know, I think one of the best things that we can do just as humans is, is listen to one another. we can't solve everybody's problems. Right? But, you know, sometimes listening is all that we need. And I tell my husband all the time and I, I love him. He's a problem solver though. So sometimes I'll come home from work and be like, Oh my god, you wouldn't believe this thing that happened today. And I'll, I'll tell him the thing and he'll try to craft a solution for me. And I'll say, no, no, no, no. That's not what I need right now. I just, I need you to listen to what I'm saying. And that's it. That's it. I don't need a solution. I'll figure it out eventually, right? But I just need your ear. And I think if we could more clearly communicate that to others, right, whether we're having a conversation with them to receive advice or just to receive that helpful ear, you know, why not put that on the forefront? Why, why not actually state those things so that you can receive what you, what you need from a friend, or a colleague, or whoever you're talking to? 01:04:11 Carlos Ramos: I think that's great advice just to listen. One, listen, and really truly listen. 01:04:17 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. 01:04:18 Carlos Ramos: And, because I'm the same way as your husband, I'm like, okay, I'm going to analyze it. I'm like, okay, if I was in this situation, here's what I do. I might do this, might do that, might do the other thing, and I'm exploring 50 different options. And I'm saying, okay, are you ready? Here we go. You can do this, this, this, this, this. And rather than that, I probably should just say, well, tell me more. 01:04:40 Summer Bukeavich: Unless someone you're talking to really wants a problem solver, you know? And if they do, then maybe... 01:04:46 Sumer Beatty: It's okay to ask, right? 01:04:46 Summer Bukeavich: Right, sure. 01:04:47 Sumer Beatty: Like, are you looking for a solution or do you just need someone to listen? 01:04:50 Carlos Ramos: Yeah. 01:04:50 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah. 01:04:50 Sumer Beatty: Although that might, I guess, depends on your audience. 01:04:54 Summer Bukeavich: Yeah, and I think we all have to consider our personal boundaries, too. You know, there's been instances where a student will come to me, you know, with an issue and I'll be like, hey, I am having a rough day myself. Can we meet tomorrow at two o'clock? And, you know, we'll talk about your options, right? I think protecting our own energy is just as important because I have... so if you come into my office, don't come into my office because it's a mess. But if you come into my office, you'll see on the wall in front of my computer, I have all sorts of quotes and things printed out. And one of them is you can't pour from an empty cup. And that is something that I really tried to live by because for years I tried to pour from an empty cup. You know, I tried to fit into an environment in which I, I didn't fit and it burnt me out. And, you know, I want to prevent my students from having to experience that, right? So I like to give them that reminder, I like to model that reminder, you know. Hey, my cup is full right now. I'm dealing with some stuff. I got a busy day. I can't give you the attention that you need. Can we schedule a time when I can be more fully present for you? And I think that's a great thing, you know, because it shows students, it shows young people that, like, that's okay. We're human. You are, it's authenticity. We, we all are. Exactly. You know, I don't want to put on, you know, some kind of a professional front. Early in my professional career, you know, I, I did that a lot. You know, I had a very distinct difference between me and the me that I presented in the workplace. And we talk a lot about that in or my organizational behavior classes. And generally speaking, that's, you know, from my experience and from what I gather from the research, it's, it's not a healthy, long term behavior. And I don't want my students, you know, having to, to go through that. you know, I try to teach them that, yeah, you know, you have to be professional at work, but you have to be you, because if you are not yourself, if you are not authentic, you know, are you going to thrive? Or are you going to just kind of spend your days just, you know, wondering, oh god, boy, what, when is the weekend here? You know, when am I going to be able to take that vacation? No, you really want to find something that meshes with who you are as a human and, you know, work in an environment that embraces you for who you are. So. 01:07:35 Carlos Ramos: Well, I think that's a great takeaway. A great place to wrap it up. 01:07:40 Sumer Beatty: Thank you so much for being with us today and for opening up and for sharing your story. 01:07:44 Summer Bukeavich: It was wonderful. Thank you for having me. 01:07:46 Sumer Beatty: Absolutely. Thanks for hanging out with us today. 01:07:51 Carlos Ramos: Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. 01:07:55 Sumer Beatty: Check out our show notes for bookmarks to your favorite sections and links to resources that we mentioned in today's episode. 01:08:01 Carlos Ramos: You can also find past episodes and see what's on deck for upcoming ones at pct.edu/podcast. 01:08:08 Sumer Beatty: And of course, we are open to your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions, so send those over at podcast@pct.edu. 01:08:17 Carlos Ramos: It's been real. 01:08:18 Sumer Beatty: Catch you next time.